Tuesday, July 23, 2024

Creating a 21st Century Collectors Guide to 1898 Documentary Printed Precancels: Charles Metz in Chambers Stamp Journal in 1951

As mentioned in previous posts, the philatelist Charles Metz was compiling a list of 1898 documentary precancels concurrently to Richard Fullerton, to the point where he published an article in the Chambers Stamp Journal in November, 1951 with a list and narrative material.  Metz's article did not provide the kind of articulation that Fullerton's list provides or images of the cancels.  But it is clear that there was more than one effort to compile an inventory of this material in the mid-20th century.  

Oddly, Metz is mentioned in Fullerton's acknowledgements but only at the very end, as if he was minor player in the work to document these cancels.  And while it may have been that he only played a minor role in Fullerton's work, it was clear that his work meant something to the community of revenue collectors.  

Metz's work in Chambers Stamp Journal was reprinted at least twice in The American Revenuer, as early as 1948, years before Fullerton had anything published on this subject.  Metz did not discriminate by perforation type, unlike Fullerton, and he limited his compilation only to steam railroads, omitting express companies and street railways.

In the article below, Metz provides background to some of the cancels, initially by introducing us to Mr. D. S. Turney, who had a substantial collection of bills of lading with railroad printed precancels, and was in possession of what is now known to be one of the rarest of the 1898 railroad precancels, that of the Chicago, Fort Madison & Des Moines Railroad.  

Turney's story of the Chicago, Fort Madison & Des Moines cancel:
"I have corresponded quite a bit with several of the better known collectors of these issues, such as Chappell, Harold Field, Don Lighton, etc., regarding these issues, and have one item which I have never seen listed, nor have any of the above men heard of it.  This is the printed precancel on the blue documentary battleship of the CFM&DMMRR.  The copy I have is on an original bill of lading of the CB&QRR used in January 1901.  Since this is right in my own backyard, a little investigation locally, plus the kindness of the CB&QRR in Chicago brought out the interesting facts that this was a short line that in its prime extended from Fort Madison, Iowa, northwestward to a junction with the CB&QRR near Batavia, Iowa (12 miles west of my home). 
"The short line was originally three foot gauge, which was standardized about 1890, and on January 1, 1900 the entire road, 71 miles long, was leased to the CB&Q.  Exactly a year later, the CB&Q bought complete ownership of the road through purchases of securities and its identity as the CFM&DMRR ceased to exist.  My conclusion is that the CB&Q, which was fairly prolific in the use of printed precancels on the one cent blue on its leased and subsidiary lines, also caused precancels to be made for the short line after it assumed the lease in January 1900.  Probably these precancels were used during 1900 and the remainders used in 1901 after the CB&Q became owner of the railroad.  

Metz's Chambers article continued:

So both Clarence Chappell and Charles Metz were ahead of the curve when it came to pulling together a list of these precancels, but Mr. Fullerton's work has become the reference standard.

Sunday, July 21, 2024

Creating a 21st Century Collector's Guide to 1898 Documentary Printed Precancels: The Bureau Specialist from November 1946

R. A. Bryant, in the November 1946 edition of The Bureau Specialist, wrote a short article referencing Chappell's 1942 list in the Weekly Philatelic Gossip.  The article sheds a bit of light on the philatelic discovery process, as it notes that Chappell listed no printed precancelled 10 cent battleships, and that subsequently, by 1946,  two had shown up: in particular, stamps cancelled by the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul and another cancelled by the International & Great Northern.  The collector Gilmore Martin reported that a collector in Missouri had an export bill of lading with the I&GNRR 10c stamp.  The tax on an export bill of lading was ten cents.  

Curiously Richard Fullerton in 1952 did not list the International & Great Northern 10 cent stamp.  So despite a quite reliable report of the existence of the I&GNRR cancel, Fullerton either did not know about or chose not to list the stamp and cancel.

Saturday, July 20, 2024

The Original 1898 Documentary Printed Cancel Inventory: Clarence Chappell's 1942 List

10 years before Fullerton published his list, Clarence Chappell produced a documentary railroad printed cancel list and published it in the February 7, 1942 edition of the Weekly Philatelic Gossip.

Fullerton credited Mr. Chappell for providing assistance in the compilation of his list, and credited the structure of his list to Chappell's work.  As such, The format for Chappell's documentary cancel list is identical to his better known proprietary cancel list.  But the field was clearly very much in the discovery phase in the middle of the 20th century, as there are several railroads and major types missing from Mr. Chappell's list that were accounted for by Fullerton, including:

  • CB&N: Chicago, Burlington & Northern
  • CFM&DMRR: Chicago, Fort Madison & Des Moines Railroad
  • KCNWRR: Kansas City, North Western Railroad
  • SC&PRR: Sioux City & Pacific Railroad - No Year Date

Several Fullerton listed cancels on the two cent battleships were not in Chappell's list, including:

  • B&MRRRinNeb:  Burlington & Missouri River Railroad in Nebraska
  • CB&QRR:  Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad
  • H&StJRR:  Hannibal & St. Joseph Railroad (this is a curious listing for Fullerton as I have not been able to confirm whether this cancel exists on the two cent battleship)
  • I&GNRR:  International & Great Northern Railroad

Thursday, July 18, 2024

Examining the 1952 Fullerton List

This post is a work in progress, something of a stream of consciousness notebook of thoughts about Fullerton's list 72 years after it was published.  Don't mind the typos, bad grammar or other mistakes, please!


The 1952 "Fullerton List", or A Catalog of Railroad Company, Street Railway and Express Company Printed Cancellation on the 1898 US Revenues, by Richard Fullerton, is a short pamphlet that listed known (or most of the known) printed precancels on documentary 1898 revenue stamps by railroads and express companies.  The original document, shown in this post, is rather hard to find but likely available through the American Philatelic Research Library.  A reprint made by Eric Jackson the 1970s is more common, and equally if not more useful as it contains a short addendum produced by Fullerton not available in the original printing.  

The collecting impulse includes an urge for completion; completion is only possible when there is an exhaustive list or catalog for which to account.  Fullerton's list provided the revenue collector a small universe of stamps to collect, as there are no more than 200 types or varieties to acquire.  However, many of the cancels listed are scarce if not extremely rare, making completion a long term and life-time challenge.  

Most of the cancels in the list were printed on the one cent blue documentary battleship stamp, a handful railroads precanceled the two cent battleship, and fewer yet precanceled other documentary denominations.  A few examples of the types of cancels in Fullerton's list 

Above: Page two of the list, with Fullerton's acknowledgements and notes.  Some of the biggest "names" in US revenue philately are mentioned here, including Morton Dean Joyce, Henry Tolman, Clarence Chappell, and Harold Field.  Note that Charles Metz is mentioned in the fourth paragraph.  Metz was compiling his own list of this material concurrently to Fullerton, and publishing his findings in the Chambers Stamp Journal.  The American Revenuer reprinted some of Metz's work, but did not reprint any part of Fullerton's work.

Fullerton's listing for the Burlington & Missouri River Railroad in Nebraska

The first railroad in Fullerton's list is the Burlington & Missouri River Railroad in Nebraska, the main Western portion of the sprawling Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad (Fullerton numbers this railroad as #5).  The image above shows five collectible stamps with a single cancel type: a one cent battleship roulette and hyphen-hole, a two cent battleship roulette and hyphen-hole, and an inverted cancel on the one cent hyphen-hole.  

The B&MRRR listing here presents us with the types of issues that we can find throughout the rest of the list.  With over 70 years of hindsight it has become clear that this list is somewhat inaccurate, and could use an adjustment, for two reasons:
  • a major type is missing - the same cancel Fullerton lists but in the color blue;
  • a major type likely doesn't exist - there is no current evidence the two cent hyphen-hole exists.
The missing cancel:  In my collecting experience I have seen the two cent battleship roulette with a blue B&MRRR cancel.  Another philatelist has also reported the existence of the cancel in blue.  

The non-extant cancel: Fullerton lists a hyphen-holed version of the B&MRRR cancel on the two cent documentary stamp.  In my years of collecting these cancels, I have yet to see an example of the cancel on this stamp.  A check of Joyce's collection presents this note in Joyce's hand: Not HH but R.  Does it thus exist?  Hmm.  Joyce sorted through his substantial holdings and found all of his 2 cent B&MRRRs to be roulettes, apparently surprised that he was missing a cancel supposedly documented and listed by Richard Fullerton, to the point he mused that the stamp must not exist.  Given my experience with these cancels and that of Joyce's, I don't believe that there is a B&MRRR two cent hyphen-hole extant.

Below: partial page scan from Joyce's stock book with Burlington & Missouri River Railroad cancels.  Many stamps have been removed since the stock book was sold after Joyce's death:
See Joyce's note by the circled "12" above.  I believe the circled 12 corresponded to the number of two cent B&MRRRs Joyce held in his stock book.  Of the 12, all must have been rouletted.  Joyce placed clipped photocopies of Fullerton's list in his stock book corresponding to the railroads or express companies on the page.  Also see the "inverted center" note.  Joyce had a single copy of this stamp; the stamp is torn but has a near perfect appearance despite the flaw.

Fullerton's second and third railroads, railroad numbers 10 & 15 according to the list, are the Chicago, Burlington & Kansas City and the Chicago Burlington & Northern, both components of the Chicago Burlington & Quincy system, like the B&MRRR above.  There are only three collectible items according to Fullerton with these two roads.  All of these cancels are rare and difficult to find.  

Like the B&MRRR, there is likely to be a major missing type based on cancel color.  Joyce apparently had a one cent roulette Chicago, Burlington & Kansas City with the cancel in blue.  See the snippet from his stock page below.

CB&KC blue cancel. Joyce notes that Fullerton did not list other colors of ink on this issue other than black.

Fullerton's railroad #20 is one of the most significant philatelic railroads.  The Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad was the mother road of eight railroads included in the list, and produced multiple types and varieties of its own cancels.  

A rather egregious example of Fullerton's penchant to list minor or transient varieties can be found below.  See type 1, 1 cent, Varieties, #6: "Smeared period after "Co".  It may be guessed that this is an example of an inking anomaly, of which in a pile of these cancels I can no doubt find several of various degrees.  Contrast the smeared period variety with the low period variety for which an example is provided below.  The low period was systematically typeset into multiple cancels on the cancelling plates, is not transient, and is not subject to subjective interpretation.  In short, smeared periods should not be a part of a list like this and low period probably should be included.

Fullerton's CB&QRR type 3 was printed after the railroad was bought out by James J. Hill and the Great Northern Railroad in 1901???.  The railroad was renamed the "CB&Q Railway" with the reorganization.  These cancels are rare.  The vast majority of cancels types found up until the end of the tax period in 1902 continued to be the type 1s.  Type 2s are scarce, but comparatively common relative to the type 3s. 

Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Fullerton Type 1 Invert not reported by Fullerton.  This variety appears not have been known by Joyce as it was not noted in his stock book

Above:  CB&Q Type 1 roulette with a low period after the Co.  This variety, with a small, round period that looks nothing like the other periods in the cancel is fairly common.  In a batch of nearly 250 type 1s, both roulette and hyphen-hole (mostly HH), roughly one-third have the small, round low period.  I believe the typesetters. did not have enough periods associated with the Type one set of type (there were six periods needed for each stamp) and borrowed periods from an different set of type.  The periods look like they could have come from Fullerton's Type 2 and Type 3 cancels.

Above:  Fullerton Type 3 with missing period after the Q not reported by Fullerton.  An example of a variety that's probably not worth listing.  Fullerton lists multiple punctuation varieties for the type 2s and 3s, and yet omits the variety above.  It is clear that the typesetters for the type 2 and 3 cancels were a bit careless and produced multiple varieties of this type.  

The Chicago, Fort Madison & Des Moines Railroad is likely the rarest cancel in the list, as there seems to be only one known and partially damaged example extant.  In a Charles Metz article the Chambers Stamp Journal in 1951, he recounts D. S. Turney's possession of a CFM&DMRR bill of lading.  I don't know whether this BOL still exists; it is possible that the known off-document copy of this cancel came from this bill of lading. 

The Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway, Fullerton #30, is one of two railroads using printed cancels that precanceled the 10 cent documentary stamp.  Unlike the one cent tax on domestic bills of lading, international bills were taxed at ten cents.  The other road precanceling the 10 cent stamps was the International & Great Northern, a Texas railroad that connected with the National Railway of Mexico at Laredo, Texas.  Oddly, Fullerton did not include the 10 cent I&GNRR in this list.  For the CM&StP, it is fairly certain that the 10 cent stamps were used for consignments sent to Canada.  I have not been able to determine the likely port of entry/departure for the CM&StP.  

A single variety for this railroad is listed by Fullerton, one that was identified by Joyce and noted and from his stock book.  The variety is a one cent rouletted stamp with a broken piece of type -- the ampersand has a broken upper loop on the right.  Fullerton included an image of the variety, and the stamp from which this image was drawn is almost certainly the one below, from Joyce: 

This variety is a one-off in a single position on the cancelling plate, and probably doesn't rank a major listing.

The Chicago & Northwestern Railway, Fullerton #35:  A few days ago I covered the Chicago & Northwestern Railway and its cancels, though not by comparing them to Fullerton's list.  This is where the logic of that post can be applied to Richard Fullerton's organization.  Notice that Fullerton buries the primary organizing variable, period or no period, at the end of the description of each type in the scan of the C&NW listing page below.  While this does not readily affect how the cancels are ordered in my list versus his, Fullerton manages to move the most important organizing information to the end of the description, as if it is an afterthought.  Nobody really needs to know any of the descriptive information regarding the cancel, including and especially the measurements if a simpler, exhaustive, and mutually exclusive organizing framework can be provided.  So I'm doing that.  Further, why make new dates a different type?  Oddly, Clarence Chappell didn't specify new types for different dates in his list of proprietary printed cancels, but he did for his 1942 documentary listing, perhaps because some of dates used a serifed "1" or some other similar minor discriminating feature.  Given that Fullerton credits Chappell with some of his thinking regarding organization, I'm inclined to believe that the source of this awkwardness started with Chappell and then was hammered home by Fullerton.

So a new list, when I finally get one complete, will be guided where possible by the principle of Occam's Razor.  The simplest explanation and organizing principle is best.  So for the C&NWRy, there will only be two types, not five, and clear, uncluttered rules.  We can skip the measurement data!

Meanwhile, a few observations on other aspects of this part of the list.  I've never seen an example of the C&NWRy double cancel pictured. It clearly exists.  I would love to see one.  The type 4 189_ the Fullerton lists as "not verified" has, to my knowledge never been seen (Joyce included).  It should probably not be a part of a future list.  
The stamp below was included in a previous post.  See above under varieties "14th dash from left missing".  The stamp below came from Joyce's stockbook and was likely the reference copy for Fullerton.  I'm not sure this minor error deserves a listing -- perhaps a note?

The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha, and the Fremont, Elkhorn are the next to railroads in the Fullerton list.  I've covered both of these roads in an earlier post.   My only comments here will pertain to his two listed varieties.  
The first variety listed above is under type 2, where Fullerton described an ampersand that is slightly less than a half of a millimeter higher in the cancel than normal.  Here is another example of a very minor typesetting issue that that if taken to its logical conclusion and applied across thousands of examples of CStPM&O cancels, might result in the identification of dozens if not hundreds of these types of errors, all subject to individual interpretation.  This variety should probably also be omitted from a revised listing.

The 1900 invert is a different matter, however.  While I have never seen one, this error is unambiguous, visually striking, and confirmed by Fullerton.  Hopefully an example will turn up in the coming years.

Fremont, Elkhorn & Missouri Valley Railroad:  I've already featured these cancels in a previous post.  The Fremont, Elkhorn is one of Fullerton's more complex cancel typologies, with changing year dates combined with different ampersand types.  Fullerton reported only one variety, however, with a split cancel with the date on top on the 1901 medium ampersand stamp.  These cancels are fairly scarce.

The Hannibal & St. Joseph Railroad was a part of the Burlington Route system of railroads.  Fullerton lists the rouletted and hyphen-holed one cent stamps with H&StJRR cancels, and he also lists a two cent battleship with the same cancel.  I have yet to confirm the existence of this stamp.  Both Clarence Chappell and Charles Metz, in their lists, did not include stamp.

Richard Fullerton seemed to have been as much or more of a collector of precancels as he was a collector of revenue stamps.  For the Linn's Stamp News, October 27, 1952 Special Precancel edition, Fullerton wrote an article on the joys of collecting these 1898 documentary cancels.  Fullerton was a member of the Precancel Society from 1944 to 1956, and I don't have any indication that he was a member of the American Revenue Association.  There are a couple of places in his list that indicate his orientation towards precancels, and the first is with the International and Great Northern Railroad.  

Fullerton includes an item he labels "HS-1" for handstamp one.  The stamp is a one cent documentary with a blue IGNRR handstamp in caps.  My guess is that he included this cancel because it is nearly certain that these handstamps were applied as precancels, just as the printed cancels were applied before use.  I have never seen one of these cancels in used condition to help confirm that these were legitimately prepared.   

At least one two cent documentary battleship stamp has been found with this handstamp.  The example known to me is posted below.

Fullerton railroad #60, the Kansas City, Fort Scott & Memphis, aka the "Memphis Route", seems to be an orphan railroad, much like the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul.  It was not a part of a larger system that used printed cancels.  However, there is a bit of wrinkle in its history that seemed to have it loosely connected with the Goulds.  The railroad was actually controlled by the "Frisco", or St. Louis & San Francisco Railway, a railroad that did not produce or use precanceled stamps.  But like many of the southwestern railroads, the Memphis Route had powerful board members located in New York.    Turns out that Nathaniel Thayer, a powerful New York-based board member for the Memphis Route, was unhappy with the Frisco's control of his railroad, accusing the Frisco of diverting the Memphis Route's better equipment for use on Frisco routes.  

Somehow the battle between Mr. Thayer and the Frisco management got to the point where an article was placed in the December 22, 1901 edition of The New York Times stating that the Goulds had taken control of the Kansas City, Fort Scott & Memphis and reporting that Thayer was disatisfied with the .  This story appears to have been completely false, as the railroad never fell out of Frisco hands in 1901-1902.  But it is clear that there is some sort of association between the managements of the Gould railroads like the Missouri Pacific and the Memphis Route.  Perhaps this connection is part of the reason that there are Memphis Route printed cancels.  Note that Memphis Route cancels were likely all produced later in the tax period, as only hyphen-holed examples are known.

The Kansas City, North Western Railroad, listed immediately above, was a small Gould-controlled railroad.  The KCNWRRCO printed cancel is quite rare.  Joyce wrote in his stock book that only two examples were known and that he had both.  I'm not sure that he was correct in that assessment and I believe that there are likely to be at least one or two more out there.  I know where two copies are, and it is likely that one of them did not come from Joyce's collection.

The Kansas City, St. Joseph & Council Bluffs Railroad was a part of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy family of railroads.  Their cancels are somewhat scarce.

Again, Fullerton lists minor varieties that probably should be omitted from a revised list.

The Missouri Pacific Railway was the Gould's flagship road.  The railroad produced four basic collectible precancels of one type on the R & HH one and two cent battleship stamps.  Fullerton reported two varieties, the first an invert and the second a fly-speck type crack in a period.  

Here is another example to illustrate Fullerton's over-generosity when it came to listing cancel varieties.  In the image above from the list you will find a "split period after "CO" listing.  For years I wondered what exactly this "split period" looked like, and then I had access to Joyce's stock book material:

split period after "CO", from Joyce's stockbook:
C'mon man.  Really?  The period looks a bit like seed, with a thin white line through it.  I don't think this merits a formal listing of any sort, for too many reasons.

Unlike the example above, the variety below goes beyond variety, to a major type, and one that 1) was unlisted by Fullerton, and 2) seems to have not been known to Joyce, as this example did not come from his collection.

MOPAC small font
This small type example has been reported by one other collector.  Normal type letters are approximately 2mm high.  These letters are approximately 1.8mm high, and visually smaller.  This is the first and only example that I have seen. 

The St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern Railway was a part of the MOPAC system and a Gould railroad.  The Fullerton listing is for this road is very simple, the one cent battleship roulette and HH with red cancels.  Fullerton reported a double cancel as unverified.  I have not seen one and figure that this unverified mention should be left off of a future listing.

The St. Louis, Keokuk & Northwestern Railroad is another of the Burlington Route Family, essentially a Chicago, Burlington & Quincy subsidiary.  Its cancels, while not common, are not scarce.  However, there are two rare types, the first being Fullerton's type 2, which is a 2.5mm shorter cancel than the type one.  The second type is a two line printed cancel on R155.  Only one copy is known.
Above, again, more small, transient varieties that were listed by Fullerton.

The StLK&NWRR R155 printed cancel

Essentially a single railroad, the St. Louis Southwestern Railway Co. and St. Louis Railway of Co. of Texas were Gould railroads that operated under the brand the Cotton Belt Route.  Richard Fullerton only listed four collectible cancels/stamps between the two roads, with the "Texas" version of the cancels in red ink.  
In the years since 1952, two new major collectible cancels/stamps have been added to the Texas catalog, a black in one cent battleship roulette, and a black ink two cent battleship hyphen hole.

The Sioux City & Pacific Railroad was reviewed in a previous post.  Fullerton listed on two collectible cancels.

The Street Railway Mystery.  The following section in Fullerton's list is perhaps the greatest mystery in the catalog.  Except for the examples of the Detroit & Wyandotte Street Railway and the Union Street Railway below, no street railways were known to have utilized printed precancels.  And except for single examples of these two cancels in Joyce's stock book, no other examples are known to have turned up over the years.  Street railways were unlikely to have used the one cent documentary as they likely weren't big freight carriers if at all.  Two cent stamps were more likely since they probably paid dividends to investors by writing checks.  However, no examples of checks of the D&WSt.R'y and Union St. R'y are known.  If these stamps were ever used, why are there not more examples?  The rarity of the CFM&DMRR cancel can be logically explained, and its legitimacy, as a brief part of the CB&Q system, is highly credible.  But these two stamps should be questioned as to whether they were legitimately prepared.  They seem to have emerged from out of nowhere.  For reasons unknown, Joyce believed these cancels legitimate and had a page dedicated to them in his stock book.  Fullerton accepted Joyce's, and then perhaps Harold Field's opinion on the matter and included them in his list.

Fullerton included three express companies in his list.  One is the Adams Express Company, one of the largest express companies in the US in the late 19th century; the others are two closely tied companies: the American Express and the National Express companies.  All express companies at the time functioned symbiotically with the railroads, and were an essential part of the railroad business, providing local collection and delivery services for clients, and subcontracting railcar space from the railroads for their packages.  

The Adams Express cancels included by Fullerton are the only cancels in his list that were not typeset; these appear to have been mimeographed, after having been typed out on a stencil. Interestingly, there are many examples of mimeographed cancels on the 1898 documentaries, and it is a question as to whether these cancels should also be considered collectible along with the rest of cancels in Fullerton's list. 

Fullerton's listing for the American Express Company is one of the longest and most complicated, for two reasons.  The first is that he included a variety of handstamped date precancels that were added to the printed cancels.  The examples include "8", "9", and "1900" in several styles.  All the cancels were stamped in hues of magenta.  The second reason for the complicated listing is the range for typesetting varieties, including large periods, small periods, no period and so on.  As I've mentioned before, I'm not sure that these deserve to be listed, as they vary greatly and are subject to so much individual interpretation.  

At least one major variety was not included in the list:  a 1901 double cancel.  The example below was included in Henry Tolman's collection when it was sold in 2007.  I assumed that Mr. Tolman acquired this stamp sometime after 1952 so that he could not have reported it to Mr. Fullerton.

For the magenta handstamped precancels, there are examples that indicate that these were indeed precancels.  The stamps below show that the dates were almost certainly applied by a clerk when all the stamps were part of a coherent sheet:

Above, 1900 handstamp applied to 189_ printed cancel listed by Fullerton.  Evidence of the 1900 handstamp applied to the stamp above it in the sheet is present.  This stamp was in Henry Tolman's collection.

Above:  Large 1900 handstamps applied to horizontal 189_  pair.  The pair was a part of Joyce's collection and in his stockbook of this material.    

Below:  American Express Fullerton addendum items.  Most of these items are Precancel handstamps.

The National Express Company was a part of the AMEX compnay and printed very similar cancels.

National Express 1900 invert.  Unlisted by Fullerton.

Below is the Fullerton Addendum page, released after the initial printing of the list.  The addendum contains, in the majority, AMEX printed cancels with handstamp precancel dates.  I've added examples of these handstamp precancels below, both those listed by Fullerton, and two not listed.